Tough Questions… Dare you to Consider Them…
Over 20 years ago, standing with my husband in the library, I looked at the books on the shelf. “The Gospel of Mary,” and several other books bared their titles at me.
I pondered.
“The gospel of Adam.”
Why weren’t these in the Bible?
I didn’t know what I didn’t know, at the time, and when I asked our Bible study leader, he told me something that wasn’t true – that the council of Nicaea decided. If you are interested in digging into this, here’s more info on the topic.
My decision at the time, was to not read the books on the shelf simply because I didn’t want to confuse myself with what may or may not be true.
I still haven’t read them, by the way.
It’s the same reason I am careful about double checking writers when they say things that are contradictory to what I’ve “always heard,” or been “taught in the church.”
What I’ve always been taught in the church about being a wife goes something like this:
- The husband is responsible for the outcome of the family
- The wife is under her husband’s authority
- The wife’s role is to do what her husband wants, to help and complete him
- The husband is supposed to lead
- The wife is supposed to submit and respect him, regardless of his behavior or salvation status
- The wife is supposed to die to herself to serve her family
- The husband is supposed to love his wife like Christ loved the church
- Matthew 18 is for church discipline issues, not sins against one another in marriage
- A wife’s should be about supporting and encouraging her husband’s dreams, giving up her own, as he is the head
This week, I’m going somewhere that may rattle a few of you, especially if you are a black and white thinker. You probably know I live in the grey of Scripture, that I point out places where the Bible seems to contradict itself, but remind us all that it really doesn’t, because one may be told by the Spirit to do one thing with one person in one situation this time, and the complete opposite the next. The best and most obvious example of this is the two seemingly contradictory Scriptures below from Proverbs 26:4-5:
Do not answer a fool according to his folly, lest you also be like him.
Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes.
A great explanation of this “contradiction” is here. Know I believe and experience the Bible as a living document, one that God will use to speak Truth and guidance into the moment of a given day.
The Bible is NOT black and white on everything.
But it does have an answer for every situation.
And you know that I’ve realized that while TOO MANY people teach that Matthew 18 is only for church discipline issues, I don’t buy that – and neither do a ton of other scholars. Just the fact that someone other than the original writer put in the heading “Church Discipline” over the section should alarm us to that NOT being what it was about. Given the entire context of the passages before and after the passages on conflict are dealing with individual conflicts, well, um, HELLO??!!
And I’m also not saying we shouldn’t use those passages in dealing with church issues – but I am saying they apply to ALL relationships, including marriage.
So as a wife, how do we deal with the seemingly contradictory concepts of “confronting a brother in his sin,” but also “submitting to our husbands in everything?”
Having read copious amounts of articles by people much smarter than me, I know the gamut runs from the legalistic “In Everything and Also Into SIN” crowd to the “No One’s Really The Leader” crowd.
I’ve literally blown reams of paper printing this stuff (nearly 50, sorry, need paper to some extent in my life still…working on it…) to study it.
So today, just to get the ball rolling – and YES, this pertains to my promise to talk about The Tip I briefly shared yesterday – I want to lay some ground work first.
And so I’m beginning with questions for YOU – just to whet your appetite and get you thinking…
And understand that these are things I wish I knew 20 years ago – but didn’t. Also know they are things that totally line up with what I believe about The Respect Dare book, all of which is still true, all of which I fully believe was written 100% by Him (unless you find a typo – in which case, I will take responsibility for that).
So here are my questions for you – please chime in on some, on all, or whatever. Use references if possible. And be open to what He might be about to teach you through this – it might just change everything. (and know I’m not going to contradict anything in The Respect Dare or the Bible as we journey! :))
And remember to be respectful as we dialogue.
SO here are my questions:
1) If we are to be “subject to our husbands in everything” Ephesians 5:24-style, how does this not then lead a woman to follow her husband into sin? What verse supports otherwise? I realize many scholars disagree over this. I would like your perspective and how you arrived at what you think, and how it differs from some of the perspectives contained in the below questions and differing perspectives.
2) If the husband is the “head” does that mean a wife is not to provide any instruction to him? Or is she only to use her gentle and quiet spirit (1 Peter 3:1-6) to hopefully influence him?
3) Do you believe Scripture says the husband’s status of salvation is irrelevant and we are to submit regardless? If so, does a wife then NOT speak into a circumstance that is damaging to herself or her children?
3) Research shows that men will live up or down to a woman’s acceptance (non-addressing) of behaviors which are sinful; ie: financial irresponsibility (stewardship), pornography, alcoholism, drug addiction, gaming, harsh verbal behavior with children (name-calling, demeaning, etc.), physically harsh behavior with children or her, philandering, etc. Psychologist and Christian Dr. Kevin Leman has written much on this topic – and encourages woman to not be enablers. He encourages women to start “conflict” (most professionals define this term as addressing a difference of opinion or perspective – not by beginning in a harsh way themselves, however) with their husbands, as does teacher and author Gary Thomas, to name a few. This seems consistent to how God showed up with Abigail (acknowledging truth to David), Esther(not submitting to the law and approaching the king), and Sarah (telling Abraham to get rid of Hagar, as God told Abraham to listen to her), just to mention a few. So do you disagree that a husband is a married woman’s closest brother, and should she (and he, for that matter) not have access to gentle restoration (Galatians 6:1) or even Matthew 18? Research by Gottman indicates these behaviors (called “repairs” save marriages and are necessary and present in literally 100% of healthy marriages – he’s the guy that can predict divorce with a 96% accuracy rating after watching a couple interact – what’s also interesting about him, is that his #1 predictor of divorce is whether or not a man will receive influence from his wife).
4) Do you believe that a wife should help her husband do well relationally with herself, her kids, and even others? Or is he fully equipped to do this on his own? Is it “un-submissive” or “disrespectful” to believe he needs her help? Why or why not?
5) If a husband is responsible for the family, should the wife try to help him do his job well, like a CFO, COO, or VP, alerting him to problems, providing advice, or does she do her job only at his direction over all details, and if he doesn’t know he’s causing a problem, just let God figure it out for him and you stay out of it, because perhaps that’s what faith is? Or could both of these things exist in a marriage?
So… have at it. 🙂 Can’t wait to see what the discussion entails. Remember to be respectful! 🙂 And back up your thoughts with Scripture.
If you are parenting small people, you should totally follow Leah and Debbie if you have tweens, teens, or twenty-somethings. Like us on Facebook so you can know when Daughters of Sarah becomes available in video format this year. I’m also active on Twitter as @NinaRoesner. Come join the discussion!
And PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE keep us in our prayers as we walk through the next steps of finishing the work for the video version of Daughters of Sarah!!
Love to you,
Interestingly, the timing of this post is so perfect because it’s what I’ve been going over a lot in my mind recently – basically, where is the line between respecting/submitting and also correcting my husband when necessary in order to not be an enabler/allower of bad behaviors and attitudes, especially towards me. I have always felt that I have a right to defend myself, so to speak, but what has changed over the last few weeks of doing The Respect Dare is how and when I do it. It’s becoming clear to me that the attitude of my heart and the timing and delivery of my words are actually the most important aspects of any conversation I have with my husband (the overarching goal of my life, according to Scripture, is to be like Jesus, is it not?). Everything else is secondary (because I know that the words I say aren’t what’s going to affect change in my husband, but rather it is the Holy Spirit who will decide when and how those take root). I’m also realizing it shouldn’t be my goal only to get him to apologize and “be nice” (although that would be the ideal response), but just to state what needs to be stated and then let God do the work. That is very hard for me because I always want to hear him say “I’m sorry,” and so often I either get a very different response or no response at all. So that is what I’m working on now – being willing to leave the conversation as is even when it’s clear that no ideal response is coming. I had that opportunity this morning, in fact, and didn’t handle it correctly – so clearly there’s still a lot of work to be done in me!!
Oh Beth. 🙂 I do understand. Hugs to you, lovely. Will be sharing more soon, but yes, it IS the work of the Holy Spirit. Pray your husband falls madly in love with Jesus. Nothing else. Stay focused on your own walk. And surround yourself with people who love you. 🙂 You’ll get through this. You are not alone.
Love to you,
~Nina
1) 1 Peter 3:6 makes it clear we are to be pure, I think of it like being an offensive light to someone who wants to hide in the darkness. We are to be gentle and quiet because our purity already makes us offensive and causes conflict.
2) If the husband is the “head” does that mean a wife is not to provide any instruction to him? Or is she only to use her gentle and quiet spirit (1 Peter 3:1-6) to hopefully influence him?
I am at a time in our marriage when I only provide instruction if he is hurting me or the children, I gently let him know of our pain or our needs. I have completely stopped “helping” him.
3) Do you believe Scripture says the husband’s status of salvation is irrelevant and we are to submit regardless? If so, does a wife then NOT speak into a circumstance that is damaging to herself or her children? I think the farther away he is from salvation, the more important it is that we submit. We also are entrusted to be our children’s protector, I think we should pull them out of damaging situations.
3) Research shows that men will live up or down to a woman’s acceptance (non-addressing) of behaviors which are sinful; ie: financial irresponsibility (stewardship), pornography, alcoholism, drug addiction, gaming, harsh verbal behavior with children (name-calling, demeaning, etc.), physically harsh behavior with children or her, philandering, etc. Psychologist and Christian Dr. Kevin Leman has written much on this topic – and encourages woman to not be enablers. He encourages women to start “conflict” (most professionals define this term as addressing a difference of opinion or perspective – not by beginning in a harsh way themselves, however) with their husbands, as does teacher and author Gary Thomas, to name a few. This seems consistent to how God showed up with Abigail (acknowledging truth to David), Esther(not submitting to the law and approaching the king), and Sarah (telling Abraham to get rid of Hagar, as God told Abraham to listen to her), just to mention a few. So do you disagree that a husband is a married woman’s closest brother, and should she (and he, for that matter) not have access to gentle restoration (Galatians 6:1) or even Matthew 18? Research by Gottman indicates these behaviors (called “repairs” save marriages and are necessary and present in literally 100% of healthy marriages – he’s the guy that can predict divorce with a 96% accuracy rating after watching a couple interact – what’s also interesting about him, is that his #1 predictor of divorce is whether or not a man will receive influence from his wife).
When a man is not following the Lord, addressing conflict pushes him away. First we must get them to want to follow the Lord, and the way to do that is with your question #1. I disagree with Dr. Leman. When a couple is unequally yoked, they don’t have a healthy marriage. I only create conflict if it’s something I’m willing to leave the marriage over.
4) Do you believe that a wife should help her husband do well relationally with herself, her kids, and even others? Or is he fully equipped to do this on his own? Is it “un-submissive” or “disrespectful” to believe he needs her help? Why or why not?
I think marriage (and family) is designed to change us, both the wife and the husband need to change for it to work. Women have a natural “gentling” effect on men, we are more modest than men, we are highly invested in protection of our future. These things are not things we should change to adapt to him. I think “seed planting” of ideas is the best way to approach my husband on ways I want him to change. I tell a story of something I want and make it sound wonderful. I don’t condemn him for not doing it, but I put the idea into his head and let him go from there. He has a natural desire to make me happy. This works very well for us. I don’t think it is manipulative because he gets to make the decision without any negative consequences from me.
5) If a husband is responsible for the family, should the wife try to help him do his job well, like a CFO, COO, or VP, alerting him to problems, providing advice, or does she do her job only at his direction over all details, and if he doesn’t know he’s causing a problem, just let God figure it out for him and you stay out of it, because perhaps that’s what faith is? Or could both of these things exist in a marriage?
This completely depends on her approach to the problem, if it’s because she believes in him, she thinks he’s the best person at his job, she is injecting confidence into him. But if she is trying to fix his flaws, she must be very careful to watch his reaction and see how he responds. My husband would not respond well to me trying to fix his flaws.
Thanks so much for your input, Jenny. 🙂 I’m so glad you are here, sounds like you’ve had much to endure. I liked your comment about how women have a natural “gentling” effect on men. 🙂 I also fully agree with a number of things you said, especially the last – “flaw fixing” is a job for the Holy Spirit, while “helping” is something a good wife can do – and yes, injecting confidence is a lovely way to put it!
Thank you so much!
Love to you,
~Nina
When you say your book was written by God, I do pray you don’t mean new God breathed revelation. Is that your belief?
OH MY EVERLOVINWORD NO.
I believe it is possible for US to have Scripture revealed to us – He’s always speaking… we listen so terribly, least I do… but NO, I’m NOT adding to Scripture. What I mean is that I had a book literally pour out of me, one I don’t even remember writing more than half of. 🙂 I remember the stories, and some of them (about half) I actually lived, and yes, there is Scripture in it, but if anything, ANYTHING, is ever taken as GOOD – it’s from Him. I neither want credit, nor the responsibility, if that even makes any sense.
His Bible is God breathed. I’m not trying to add to the Bible.
Heavens NO.
Scuze me while I have a heart attack! I’m so sorry if anything I’ve ever said in an attempt to give Him credit for everything Good that’s come out of me would ever, in any way, ever even remotely infer that I was writing new God breathed revelation. His Word is and was and always will be the Word and is True. And nothing I say or do will ever even remotely in the smallest minisculest of molecularly possibly way even come close to anything even like that.
NO.
Gosh.
Love to you,
~Nina
Well, that answer was certainly emphatic enough to clear up some things. I’m new here. Excuse me for causing you to nearly dial 911! I was pretty shaken up, myself. Last night when I stopped by the first time, I read you using hell as an expression, then this. Just trying to figure out what’s what before I decide to stay a while longer.
🙂
That would have been one of two times – (fairly sure, anyway…pushing 50 so…) – and both in reference to a real place. Goodness! :). Glad you are here! Hope you stay in spite of me!
Love to you,
~Nina
Fools rush in where angels fear to tread. Here are your questions with my answers.
Nina’s questions:
1) If we are to be “subject to our husbands in everything” Ephesians 5:24-style, how does this not then lead a woman to follow her husband into sin? What verse supports otherwise?
**There is never a mandate or a right to do wrong. I am subject to my husband: Ephesians 5:22 Wives, [be subject] to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
My obedience is to the Lord. My allegiance to the Lord supersedes in authority, the authority of my husband. If I am directed by my husband to do something that is prohibited in Scripture, rather than a preference, I must respectfully decline. This is also supported in Acts 5:29 where Peter and the apostles have been arrested and placed in jail. They were freed by an angel during the night and returned to the Temple to teach. The Sanhedrin had them brought back before the Council:
27 When they had brought them, they stood them before the Council. The high priest questioned them, 28 saying, “We gave you strict orders not to continue teaching in this name, and yet, you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and intend to bring this man’s blood upon us.” 29 But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men.
Immediately before this account in Acts 5 is the account of Ananias and Sapphira. Sapphira came in after her husband’s body had been carried out and they asked her about the gift of money. She supported her husband in the deception and died on the spot. God held her accountable even though she was following her husband’s lead.
So we are accountable to God to obey our husbands in all things where our husband does not direct us to disobey the clearly revealed will of God as written in the Bible.
2) If the husband is the “head” does that mean a wife is not to provide any instruction to him? Or is she only to use her gentle and quiet spirit (1 Peter 3:1-6) to hopefully influence him?
**I have lively discussions with Roy about faith and a host of other topics. However, I defer to him and do not resist his leadership. This has not always been so. I am finding life so much better since I politely and civilly present my opinion and place each situation in God’s hands. I was angry with Roy about instances through the years where he has gone against my clearly stated stance. I had to forgive him and let go of what I considered his offenses toward me. The Lord convicted me that Roy had the right and responsibility to make those decisions and did not have to abide by my opinion. In truly forgiving Roy and repenting of my attempts to control everything I have found peace, gratitude and joy and our marriage is transforming into something better and better.
3) Do you believe Scripture says the husband’s status of salvation is irrelevant and we are to submit regardless? If so, does a wife then NOT speak into a circumstance that is damaging to herself or her children?
**We are to submit to our husband as onto the Lord. Our obedience and our trust are ultimately to the Lord.
But look at Abigail in 1 Samuel 25. Her husband’s evil behavior had placed her household in jeopardy. She took action to preserve her household and then returned to confront her husband Nabal, not immediately while Nabal was drunk, but the next day. Abigail acted with wisdom and discretion and the Lord preserved, promoted, and protected her.
3) Research shows that men will live up or down to a woman’s acceptance (non-addressing) of behaviors which are sinful; ie: financial irresponsibility (stewardship), pornography, alcoholism, drug addiction, gaming, harsh verbal behavior with children (name-calling, demeaning, etc.), physically harsh behavior with children or her, philandering, etc. Psychologist and Christian Dr. Kevin Leman has written much on this topic – and encourages woman to not be enablers. He encourages women to start “conflict” (most professionals define this term as addressing a difference of opinion or perspective – not by beginning in a harsh way themselves, however) with their husbands, as does teacher and author Gary Thomas, to name a few. This seems consistent to how God showed up with Abigail (acknowledging truth to David), Esther (not submitting to the law and approaching the king), and Sarah (telling Abraham to get rid of Hagar, as God told Abraham to listen to her), just to mention a few. So do you disagree that a husband is a married woman’s closest brother, and should she (and he, for that matter) not have access to gentle restoration (Galatians 6:1) or even Matthew 18? Research by Gottman indicates these behaviors (called “repairs” save marriages and are necessary and present in literally 100% of healthy marriages – he’s the guy that can predict divorce with a 96% accuracy rating after watching a couple interact – what’s also interesting about him, is that his #1 predictor of divorce is whether or not a man will receive influence from his wife).
**I am my husband’s best friend. He can tell if I have a rebellious, controlling spirit toward him and life. I have majorly modified my behavior toward him, treating him with respect, and love. When he comes down in the morning, or returns from being away I get up, go to him and greet him with a hug and a kiss. I demonstrate a willingness to serve him. I listen to the stories that I have heard for close to 40 years with interest. I do not resist him and I am trying to learn to release control to God and to Roy. I speak well of him and honor him as onto the Lord but as I have submitted as onto the Lord I have found it easier and easier to be a suitable helper to Roy.
4) Do you believe that a wife should help her husband do well relationally with herself, her kids, and even others? Or is he fully equipped to do this on his own? Is it “un-submissive” or “disrespectful” to believe he needs her help? Why or why not?
**I am not the Holy Spirit but I am a suitable helper. I am not a child but I can while still expressing respect for Roy work to have healthy relationships within our family. In dealing with others I do not treat my husband with disrespect much less scorn. I am intent on doing him good and not evil all the days of his life. I do treat my husband as an adult but I am sensitive to the Lord’s leading. I give my husband room to succeed without my coming in to fix things.
5) If a husband is responsible for the family, should the wife try to help him do his job well, like a CFO, COO, or VP, alerting him to problems, providing advice, or does she do her job only at his direction over all details, and if he doesn’t know he’s causing a problem, just let God figure it out for him and you stay out of it, because perhaps that’s what faith is? Or could both of these things exist in a marriage?
I am designated a steward along with my husband (Genesis 1: 26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” 29 Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; 30 and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, [I have given] every green plant for food”; and it was so. 31God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day..
I know Roy’s preferences within our lives and home. I make a point of acting in line with his preferences as long as they are not illegal, immoral, and unethical—i.e., opposed to God’s clearly revealed will, which they haven’t been in my memory. I am his steward in whatever areas he wants me to be—I pay the bills, do the taxes and take care of our home and him. I buy his clothes, including his shoes because he does not care to. I run most all decisions past him but make decisions when he does not care to—dinner, some family or social activities. I do not attempt to defy, control, or rebel against him. I respect him enough to not try to manipulate or deceive him.
While I am a woman of influence with Roy, when a decision has to be made I have to let him make the decision and bear the consequences that may affect me, also. He stands before God accountable. Remember that Adam is the one who is held accountable even though Eve was the one who first was tempted and made the decision to believe the lies of the serpent—occupying enemy.
Bottom line—My obedience, and my trust are in God. His Word says that woman was made to be a helper suitable for her husband. It also says that woman along with man is created in the image of God and has the responsibility with man for being a steward of God’s creation. A woman is not required to marry but when she does God has an order in creation. Man is to submit to God, Jesus submits to the Father, the Holy Spirit puts the spotlight on Jesus. God has an order and spheres of authority. We function best when we function within them.
SIDE NOTE: God’s Word says what it means and means what it says. God’s commands cross ages and societies. We need to honestly seek to know what God says and not try to twist it to our preferences. God does not take polls. He has known from eternity past that there would be a today. God’s Word works. God knew there would be a you facing the challenges you face and His Word has the solutions.
Mary –
I love you to pieces.
I enjoyed this so much – how God’s Word shows up in your applications… and especially loved the Side Note. 🙂 YES.
A thousand times YES.
Love to you,
~Nina
Wow, these are some tough questions which i have struggled with all my adult life, especially in my relationship with my husband. It has always been so hard for me to know just when it is ok to speak up and how to do it in a way that is received respectfully. In my case, whenever I tried in the past to discuss anything negative and voice my concerns, my husband always deemed it disrespectful and felt like it was an attack on his character. No matter how respectful I “tried” to be, It was never his fault, it was mine for speaking up. (He was a “called to be pastor” addicted to pornography) On a brighter note, we now have a wonderful relationship where I can speak freely, but it took many years and lots of prayer. I am not sure what I would have done differently…I still struggle with that. At times I feel as if maybe I should have put my foot down and gave him the ultimatum (not divorce of course, but just been more firm and assertive). I don’t know; maybe if I did, that period in our lives wouldn’t have lasted 17 years. Then again, wow what we learnt in those 17 years have truly prepared us for the ministry we have today. Those are questions I still ponder upon. I was raised to submit, no matter what (unless it was a serious sin like adultery). But what makes adultery more serious than another and then there’s the fact of grace—where does that come in. How much sin is too much and what sins require us to speak up, to our help our precious brother in Christ (our husbands)?????
Sorry I am not much help…but wonderful questions. I will try and take a little time and seriously think through what truly has changed our marriage, but until then I can’t wait to read all of your responses.
THEY ARE TOUGH! 🙂 And I can totally relate to what you are saying. Thanks so much for your perspective, Kathy. I hope to provide some “answers” tomorrow! 🙂
Love to you,
~Nina
Kathy, you sound like you could be speaking about my husband regarding discussing any issue of our relationship. In his case he came from a very dis functional family that did not discuss. They fought, yell, cuss etc. no matter how kindly and rationally I approached a subject, he felt hurt, rejection, disrespect, fear/anger etc. It took many years for him to trust me. I knew that it would be a big deal if I brought up anything and weighed that and prayed a lot before approaching him. It is much better now but took many, many years for him as well.
Oh Nina… i need the ANSWERS to these! I can really only remark on the first one. The rest i am struggling with too. #1 we are under God’s authority first. If a husband tells us to sin then we should NOT submit to sin, but must choose to follow God’s law. This is incredible hard to do. If you do not ‘obey’ then you are disrespectful and disobedient. So if it is taking something you didn’t pay for, lying to cover for someone, or not claiming income on your taxes…. if he wants it and it is a clear violation of how God directs us to live you must stand firm. To quietly state that this appears to violate Scripture and i must obey God rather than man.(Acts 5:29)…and have hateful words (or fists) thrown at you is suffering for Christ’s sake. What JOY flooded my heart when i saw that! It may be hard with the spouse but isn’t it better to be at odds with a spouse than at odds with GOD? You follow Christ and those who don’t WILL be irritated. An unbeliever who cares not for God’s law may respond to man’s law but a professing Christian confronted with a wife who says he is telling her to sin is going to probably go ballistic. No one likes being told they are doing wrong especially by someone they regard as lower on the power chain.
Nancy –
I LOVE Acts 5:29. 🙂 And I think we’ll be dealing with some of these questions tomorrow and next week as part of “the answers” – I also think it’s a given that we’ll end up with more questions, too! LOL 🙂
Love to you,
~Nina